Transcript of Marshall Lamm's interview for Empower Your Teen
Emma Perez 0:00
Welcome back to Empower Your Teen. I'm Emma Perez. In this week's journey of learning how to help our teens make solid decisions for their future, I'm so glad we had the chance to talk with Marshall Lamm. He is a licensed clinical mental health counselor and owner of Lifeworks Counseling. Marshall has a unique ability to make the therapeutic process positive and even enjoyable. And he certainly sprinkled some of that magic on our interview today. Let's jump right in. All right, hello, Marshall.
Marshall Lamm 0:30
Hello, Emma, how are you?
Emma Perez 0:32
I'm good. How are you?
Marshall Lamm 0:34
Good.
Emma Perez 0:35
Thank you so much for being here.
Marshall Lamm 0:37
You bet.
Emma Perez 0:38
So I'm excited to talk with you because you are a mental health counselor. What a great resource for parents of teens. I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your story with us and how you got into mental health counseling.
Marshall Lamm 0:54
Well, you'll probably see very quickly that I got into it mostly for self help. There was a A lot. I'm a lot about this whole image. So I thought I'd just get first hand experience. I think I just always liked the idea of helping. My mom when I was eight years old, she went away and did residential treatment for depression. It was so bad. And I just think the greatest gift she ever gave me really was going to take care of that. And the work she continued to do.
Emma Perez 1:29
Wow,
Marshall Lamm 1:30
it kind of changed things. And so I think there was always a kind of a bit of an interest in a person's ability to kind of have an impact on things like that. But actually, one of the reasons I got into it with my first career plan didn't pan out the way I thought it was going to and so I had to go back to the drawing board and it just all of a sudden things just kind of clicked like the keys, you know, going to tumblers. It was just like yes, this is the this is the thing to do this
Emma Perez 2:01
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that story. I actually really admire your mom for doing that. Because it's it's a different world today than it than it was a previous generation. And that could have been much scarier for her to do.
Marshall Lamm 2:14
Yes. I mean, like client centered behavior client centered therapy was, it's been it had been a thing for decades, but still, even then, it was like her kind of dignity. And also it was tough. It was hard. Thankfully, we've come a long way even since since then,
Emma Perez 2:32
we have we have and what a great example for you to see someone taking care of themselves. Like you said, That's amazing. And then your curiosity just came from that. So that's a great story. Thank you. And I also love hearing about people who have kind of had a change in their career or their trajectory from what they thought, especially working with young people that are so worried about getting it right getting the right thing, right away. and it's like, well, not everybody does. And that's okay.
Marshall Lamm 3:04
Exactly. So much of it is not just meant to pan out immediately, we learned tons tons in the process.
Emma Perez 3:12
Yeah, that's true. It's true. Okay, so we have families here with us that are here because they have teens that are trying to make some decisions for life after high school, whatever that looks like for them. And maybe they're struggling to make those decisions. So I want to talk a little bit about what some of those scenarios could be and just kind of get your your input on that. So first, potential situation here is that a teen is trying to make a decision about which college go to which degree to pick and they're really kind of stressing about making sure that they make the right decision. They pick the right school, they pick the right degree program, and maybe there's some pressure and stress there. Do you have any advice for parents on how to help their teen make these decisions without so much pressure.
Marshall Lamm 4:04
I know that that pressure to Well, these are this is typically the kind of population, you know, the kind of kids who would need help with a kind of a decision like this because they care so much, they really want to do the right thing. Most often these kids who are considering these kind of decisions, they're smart, they have high standards, you know, they're driven and they're typically sensitive and tender hearted. And I see it every time that these are the three gifts that keep on giving to actual anxiety issues. It's like if you got these three great things, you better believe you're gonna you know, you're dealing with anxiety. And mostly the idea is really managing the anxiety first, and you can tell your kids you can tell yourself to you might not believe it. But there really is as far as it comes to things like this. If the standard in your brain is there's a right decision. There's the right school the right major the right this and that you really are going to suffer from what they call paralysis by analysis. So you can already if you like, feel free by the the magical therapeutic powers invested in me I hereby divest you of the need to do it correctly, because there really is no like correctly. It's like, if so, yeah, there's no real right school. There's no right career, which sounds really hopeless, doesn't it? It's just a crap shoot guys.
And you just work it out. Whatever. (laughing)
There's a popular I think mental health speaker. Her name is Mel Robbins here to Mel Robbins. I have learned a ton but I actually had a client Tell me about her the other day how she really really loved coffee shops and you know loved everything about 'em and it was her dream to own a coffee shop. So she set out to live that dream, bought a place, set it all up, ran the coffee shop and learned pretty quickly She hated owning a coffee shop. But it was in the process of making the next choice, the next small choice that kind of helped her actually come to that conclusion. And that got her on a different path to what really she was best suited for. So yes, have vision. But, it's not so much about making sure you get that vision accomplished as much as it is about taking a next step toward that vision. Let's say these are in general tools, ways to talk about it. Now this is you know, taking into consideration whether or not your kids even want your help. They might not even be soliciting your help, you know, they might not even want it to begin with. Might be a good way to start the discussion to tell them well there really is no right. It's about conscious choosing to teach your kids how to consciously choose if you yourselves as parents. (cell phone ping) See right there is a text message, I stayed late.
Emma Perez 7:14
So inappropriate! (laughs)
Marshall Lamm 7:17
no decorum. (laughs) anyway.
You teach 'em, firstly, if you can be uncomfortable with the idea of having not lived up to your own goals, standards and ideals, you know, handle that first. That's kind of where I really spend a lot of my, my effort when I'm working with clients.
Emma Perez 7:39
Is there any, like piece of advice that you can give to a parent who has the kid that it's like, no, I got I got to do this the right way. And if it's not right, then I don't want to do it at all. You know, when you have that sort of a kid, how can you help them get comfortable with the idea of there is no right way and it's okay.
Marshall Lamm 7:59
You first consider the prospect of their failure. All right, and as you consider that, see if it brings up any kind of emotion. If it brings up any kind of fear, any kind of even anger, disgust, those kind of things. See if that brings up in you that you if it was as a parent, well that's really ground zero. If you go to work on managing that emotional response because I firmly believe you are not picking any negative emotional response to the idea of your kids failing or anything in life. The brain is just designed, ready. It already has programs ready to just be set off by whatever's happened. So don't feel bad. feelings, You know, experiencing emotions experiencing feelings never was bad. So the more comfortable you are with, you know your own feelings, especially as it relates to your own child's failure. Now you provide more of a safe place you provide a foundation a Rock of security of sorts to which they can turn when they inevitably fail and mess up and it does not go to plan. If your child is amenable to therapy might be a good place to introduce them to the world of therapy because if they're that rigid, it has to be one way or the other. They're going to explode. It's gonna happen whether whether or not you like it, is that all Johnny Cash song, you know, sooner or later that gotta cut you down. You can run on for a long time. (singing) "you can run on for a long time. Run on..." I was just thinking this the other day, you can run on for a long time, but sooner or later your rigidity will catch up to you there will be nowhere else to run. And, and as a parent, I consider that happening and that you can handle it. And that so could they and that sometimes that's the thing that they need to experience before they'll be soft on the inside to receive help.
Emma Perez 10:00
Right, thank you so much for that. Yeah, that's something that I talked about with clients as well as is go ahead and confront your fears. And, and then what would you do? You know, because I feel like a lot of us, just, you know, our fears kind of sit out here. And they're like, No, I don't want to look at it. I don't want to look at it. And it's like, Look, look at it, is it really going to be as bad as you think? You know? Okay, so what if we have families whose teens are questioning if they even want to do college, which is can be kind of scary because they hear from school, they hear from everybody, what are you majoring in? Where are you going to college? Just already assumed, and that's the best path that you should take. And so if there's thinking maybe they don't want to do it, should we be worried.
Marshall Lamm 10:50
No, in a nutshell, no. I kind of like Dirty Jobs guy Mike Rowe.
Emma Perez 10:57
Yeah.
Marshall Lamm 10:58
You know, the idea that mean there's just multiple paths to making your way in life. There's the Misaki guy, right? Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
Emma Perez 11:07
Mm hmm.
Marshall Lamm 11:08
If you're putting off college, because you're afraid, i don't think that's a good reason to put anything off really, because you're afraid of that if you don't think you're up for the task, but certain things interest you certain professions that would require a college degree or interesting, but you're like, I don't think I could hack it. Well, there's time therapy, time for therapy, because all the fears and stuff in life they're telling us that life is super difficult and and those fears and those messages really aren't wrong. Life is so hard! one of my favorite quotes recently was "it's not that life is not as bad as you think it is. It's worse." it is so much worse. And it's compounded by other people's apathy and malevolence. And at the same time, like you're saying, when you're teaching your clients that we start to learn that we're up It which says something about really what we're made of on the inside, but you can't learn that about yourself until you head in the direction of facing your fear. And let's say when you do that you find, okay, on the other side of facing that fear, maybe all of a sudden the confidence comes to pursue that college education to take the next small step. Maybe it's like, I really want to go to college, I'm kind of interested in this. I want to just get going. I want to just get going with making something like that happen or this, that and the other. I like the idea, See what seems like the next step, the next conscious choice you can make. And for some kids, it's going to be avoidance, that will be the next easiest choice that they're prepared and willing to make. Which means we as parents have to learn how to deal with that the prospect of my own kids doing that makes me (anxious sound) Now if I have that on the inside, Well, that's going to totally impact the way I relate to them which will not be helpful. I like the idea that I've got time and space to be patient with them now, because I want to help them you know, gain confidence and trust in themselves that they can learn from failure that it would be okay that they can engage.
Emma Perez 13:15
What a valuable lesson to teach your kids too that you can learn from failure because a lot of what they experience in life is about you can't fail. You know, the school system is set up for this is the right answer. You have to get the right answer you can't fail. So what a valuable lesson to teach them that there is value in failure, there is something that you can learn from it.
Marshall Lamm 13:38
Absolutely, because failure, It's not like learning from failure's the backup plan, it's kind of THE plan. failure ia inevitable. Your life is set up that we will all become flaming disasters at one point or another if not on the daily. Can't avoid it. So just embrace the hopelessness (laughing)
Emma Perez 14:04
But it's not hopeless because it does lead to, to finding your purpose, right? Finding Your what you want to do. And I have a little quote that I don't even remember where I heard it, but I wrote it down and I look at it it says "fear means you're onto something." So every time I get really scared, I go, okay. Am I gonna let this hold me back? Or am I gonna say, Oh, I'm onto something. Let me keep going here.
Marshall Lamm 14:36
Yes, I think this is why mental health therapy is so important because I can't talk myself out of my own fear when I experience it. Some and it can help us feel a little bit better, but the body that you know our bodies as they produce fear and all sorts of, you know, those other maladaptive emotions is that it It runs on a bit like a different circuit that doesn't speak any spoken language. So sometimes when we try to talk ourselves out of it to it only aggravates the situation, which mental therapy is, it can be so helpful, because it's like, well, I got the fear and trying to talk myself out of it isn't working, trying to "let it go" isn't working. How do I actually manag, what actually will help me manage. That's what I love about my job. Is that a good help? Well, I practice I gotta practice this stuff to any good therapist. I think we need therapy ourselves. And so I have a good therapist. And so I undertake these things every day. I try to live accordingly. And so there's really,
Emma Perez 15:34
yeah, something that I will talk with clients about sometimes is oftentimes pain can lead to purpose, right? So something that you've struggled with yourself, and you've learned how to overcome it or you're in the process. There are lots of people out there that utilize that to help other people as well.
Marshall Lamm 15:54
Yes, yeah. Learn that you help yourself. Yeah. And you can then be of use to other people. in ways that you can't really predict but all the sudden it's there. I think magical things happen on the other side of confronting your own fear and pain.
Emma Perez 16:10
That's true. That's true. It's scary, but it's, it can be so rewarding when you do it. So I'm also hearing you saying that it can be helpful for parents to to start to kind of check their own emotions when it comes to this topic with their with their teens, and that we all as a family can use techniques to kind of calm our anxiety and calm our fears and that can lead us to a better decision making place. Yes?
Marshall Lamm 16:45
yes, absolutely. It's like the amygdala, fight flight portion of the brain. It plays a zero sum game with the prefrontal cortex, which is that smart creative thinking problem solving part of the brain which means in if this is activated, It's like they're on a teeter totter a seesaw. If the amygdala activated, then we are emotionally driven and the smart part of our brain is overwhelmed by all of that. But if we practice deactivating the amygdala, this, it's not like it doesn't do this. And then we need to work on building this up. No, it's an inverse relationship. That smart part of our brain is bolstered. So much research supports that if we just focus on basic amygdala deactivation, deactivating the fight flight part of the brain, that we changed the brain. If you did diaphragmatic breathing for 20 total minutes every day for three months, your brain would look healthier, it would look different.
Emma Perez 17:40
Wow.
That's amazing. So okay, so you can't reason with anxiety. Right? And so if your kids in an anxious place about making the right decision, then they're they can't reason out of it and they're not going to be able to make a solid decision. So first things first is do physical things like the diaphragmatic breathing that you mentioned, to get ourselves into a better headspace.
Marshall Lamm 18:07
Yes, parents have better access to their prefrontal cortexes. kids don't the kids prefrontal cortex is aren't going to be fully grown till their 20s Apparently, the research says like age 20/21 for girls 25 for guys, so they really don't even have a fully formed ability to get rational. We do and yet we relate to them irrationally so much. it's like kids are specifically designed to reveal our own crap our own stuff that we haven't worked on yet.
Emma Perez 18:38
What an idea! (laughing)
Marshall Lamm 18:42
This is another cool thing with research why would say parents start with you, it actually makes a difference. It's like let's say in classroom one, or home one or treatment facility one, you got the staff parents, teachers, they practice mindfulness meditation techniques, which is another deactivator of the amygdala. and home school treatment facility to the staff, parents, teachers don't practice it, but they definitely teach it a lot to the students. The outcomes are much better, much higher over here (indicates first scenario). Wihtout Even teaching it.
Emma Perez 19:19
Whoa, why is that?
Marshall Lamm 19:22
It's all I think there's a lots of fun explanation for why I just like to think that it just changes the energy of people involved. If kids are emotionally driven, they're more likely to pick up on parents energy. Right? they can tell if mom's anxious, they can tell if mom's mad or dad's mad dad's anxious, they can pick up on that without them saying a word. And that they're you know, instinctively they have ways of automatically relating to that. So if mom and dad are just kind of have a way of rationally and calmly relating to their own emotional upset, kids will pick up on that
Emma Perez 19:58
wow. They pick up on that. And then and they watch you too.
Marshall Lamm 20:04
Yep. Yeah. they watch us how we live and they they pick up on all that. I think it's kind of like they pick up on the energy first, without even us saying or doing anything different. And then they start to see how that impacts what we say and do. Now for them when we're emotionally driven. And we're like kind of nitpicking and being super involved we're often times too often we're sending the message that we don't believe in our kids ability to cope with difficulty and to learn from stress and failure.
Emma Perez 20:36
And so they get to this transition into adulthood,
Marshall Lamm 20:39
just freaking out,
Emma Perez 20:42
and they don't trust themselves. Wow. Okay, so what I'm hearing you say is "check yourself before you wreck yourself,"
Marshall Lamm 20:54
That's right. Yes.
You can always be Begin there as a parent. And you can think your advice to your kids is kind of the cherry on top of all that. You can think don't really give advice until you know and have a sense that your kids actually want it or are receptive to it. Otherwise, you're the Peanuts teacher or you know, parent wa wa wa wa that's all they hear.
Emma Perez 21:20
Yeah. And it's so hard as teens to because it's just the stage when it's hard to get them to talk to you. Sometimes it's hard to get them to engage in conversation with you.
Marshall Lamm 21:29
Yes. When they do, I want to encourage that again, so I'm going to be listening more. If I start to pitch in my thoughts, my advice, they don't have the capacity to really make sense of all the "vast wisdom and knowledge that I possess," (laughs) they, they don't have the ability to really integrate and make sense of all that stuff anyway, but they do. They'll pick up on whether or not I care whether or not I have patience for them to make big mistakes and to learn from them. Okay, they can pick up on that.
Emma Perez 22:02
Yeah. This is been so valuable. Thank you for sharing this with us. So what I want to ask next is if there is a family out there that is is saying okay, maybe I should seek some mental health counseling for my teen because they are feeling very stressed and anxious. How can they reach out to you?
Marshall Lamm 22:28
Well, I my website life works Utah and based in Utah, but I do I do video sessions as well if need be. Okay. Yeah. So if your lifeworksutah.com you'll see a spot to request an appointment. That's how you can get ahold of me.
Emma Perez 22:45
Okay. And I'll make sure to include the link for that. And you also have a free gift for us today. Is that right?
Marshall Lamm 22:51
Yes, just I mean for the kids too and again for the parents. The importance of sleep. I mean, Sleep is it's there all the time. And we have a really weird way of relating to it. know this, no human ever got eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. It never happened. It never happened! because there's sleep cycles and things where we actually Wake Up. Now we might not remember waking up but we stir we toss and turn and sleep weird all night. Regardless, we kind of think that something magic happens if we get uninterrupted sleep. oh there are amazing ways to relate to sleep, and it's happening all the time. And we just like to think well, if I'm asleep, it's working, if not we're stressed. so getting your sleep together is maybe one of the best things you can do also as a parent and help your kids incorporate to, to really help them as they're making these amazing, awesome opportunity life choices.
Emma Perez 23:48
And I've heard that sleep deprivation can lead to depression, anxiety, right? And, and kids, you know teens in high school. I mean, they've got school early in the morning when their sleep cycle is later. And they've got all these extracurricular activities to get in to make sure they have on their resume and they have all this homework and so I think the statistic I saw was 80 something percent of teens are sleep deprived. So maybe just helping them get better sleep can even help reduce some of the anxiety and help them get into a better mental space for for making some decisions.
Marshall Lamm 24:32
Absolutely. For sure. I think they needed electives in high school classes on power napping.
Emma Perez 24:39
I love it. I love it. Yeah, why do we stop napping when we're kids?
Marshall Lamm 24:46
Naps are the best that's one of my goals right now is to make sure I get a daily 15 minutes 20 minute nap.
Emma Perez 24:52
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so your free gift is you said it was a video right? a video about
Marshall Lamm 24:57
a little video kind of like this. Little informal. going over some points for how you can start to improve your sleep tonight.
Emma Perez 25:06
Nice. That's amazing. Okay, so I'll put the link to that below this video as well so people can snag that. Thank you so much Marshall for all this was this was great information and it was great fun talking to you as well.
Marshall Lamm 25:19
You too, Emma. It's fun to talk shop a little bit too.
Emma Perez 25:22
Yeah, yeah, I like it. Alright, well, we'll talk again soon. Okay?
Marshall Lamm 25:27
Sounds good.
Emma Perez 25:28
Have a good one.
Welcome back to Empower Your Teen. I'm Emma Perez. In this week's journey of learning how to help our teens make solid decisions for their future, I'm so glad we had the chance to talk with Marshall Lamm. He is a licensed clinical mental health counselor and owner of Lifeworks Counseling. Marshall has a unique ability to make the therapeutic process positive and even enjoyable. And he certainly sprinkled some of that magic on our interview today. Let's jump right in. All right, hello, Marshall.
Marshall Lamm 0:30
Hello, Emma, how are you?
Emma Perez 0:32
I'm good. How are you?
Marshall Lamm 0:34
Good.
Emma Perez 0:35
Thank you so much for being here.
Marshall Lamm 0:37
You bet.
Emma Perez 0:38
So I'm excited to talk with you because you are a mental health counselor. What a great resource for parents of teens. I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your story with us and how you got into mental health counseling.
Marshall Lamm 0:54
Well, you'll probably see very quickly that I got into it mostly for self help. There was a A lot. I'm a lot about this whole image. So I thought I'd just get first hand experience. I think I just always liked the idea of helping. My mom when I was eight years old, she went away and did residential treatment for depression. It was so bad. And I just think the greatest gift she ever gave me really was going to take care of that. And the work she continued to do.
Emma Perez 1:29
Wow,
Marshall Lamm 1:30
it kind of changed things. And so I think there was always a kind of a bit of an interest in a person's ability to kind of have an impact on things like that. But actually, one of the reasons I got into it with my first career plan didn't pan out the way I thought it was going to and so I had to go back to the drawing board and it just all of a sudden things just kind of clicked like the keys, you know, going to tumblers. It was just like yes, this is the this is the thing to do this
Emma Perez 2:01
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that story. I actually really admire your mom for doing that. Because it's it's a different world today than it than it was a previous generation. And that could have been much scarier for her to do.
Marshall Lamm 2:14
Yes. I mean, like client centered behavior client centered therapy was, it's been it had been a thing for decades, but still, even then, it was like her kind of dignity. And also it was tough. It was hard. Thankfully, we've come a long way even since since then,
Emma Perez 2:32
we have we have and what a great example for you to see someone taking care of themselves. Like you said, That's amazing. And then your curiosity just came from that. So that's a great story. Thank you. And I also love hearing about people who have kind of had a change in their career or their trajectory from what they thought, especially working with young people that are so worried about getting it right getting the right thing, right away. and it's like, well, not everybody does. And that's okay.
Marshall Lamm 3:04
Exactly. So much of it is not just meant to pan out immediately, we learned tons tons in the process.
Emma Perez 3:12
Yeah, that's true. It's true. Okay, so we have families here with us that are here because they have teens that are trying to make some decisions for life after high school, whatever that looks like for them. And maybe they're struggling to make those decisions. So I want to talk a little bit about what some of those scenarios could be and just kind of get your your input on that. So first, potential situation here is that a teen is trying to make a decision about which college go to which degree to pick and they're really kind of stressing about making sure that they make the right decision. They pick the right school, they pick the right degree program, and maybe there's some pressure and stress there. Do you have any advice for parents on how to help their teen make these decisions without so much pressure.
Marshall Lamm 4:04
I know that that pressure to Well, these are this is typically the kind of population, you know, the kind of kids who would need help with a kind of a decision like this because they care so much, they really want to do the right thing. Most often these kids who are considering these kind of decisions, they're smart, they have high standards, you know, they're driven and they're typically sensitive and tender hearted. And I see it every time that these are the three gifts that keep on giving to actual anxiety issues. It's like if you got these three great things, you better believe you're gonna you know, you're dealing with anxiety. And mostly the idea is really managing the anxiety first, and you can tell your kids you can tell yourself to you might not believe it. But there really is as far as it comes to things like this. If the standard in your brain is there's a right decision. There's the right school the right major the right this and that you really are going to suffer from what they call paralysis by analysis. So you can already if you like, feel free by the the magical therapeutic powers invested in me I hereby divest you of the need to do it correctly, because there really is no like correctly. It's like, if so, yeah, there's no real right school. There's no right career, which sounds really hopeless, doesn't it? It's just a crap shoot guys.
And you just work it out. Whatever. (laughing)
There's a popular I think mental health speaker. Her name is Mel Robbins here to Mel Robbins. I have learned a ton but I actually had a client Tell me about her the other day how she really really loved coffee shops and you know loved everything about 'em and it was her dream to own a coffee shop. So she set out to live that dream, bought a place, set it all up, ran the coffee shop and learned pretty quickly She hated owning a coffee shop. But it was in the process of making the next choice, the next small choice that kind of helped her actually come to that conclusion. And that got her on a different path to what really she was best suited for. So yes, have vision. But, it's not so much about making sure you get that vision accomplished as much as it is about taking a next step toward that vision. Let's say these are in general tools, ways to talk about it. Now this is you know, taking into consideration whether or not your kids even want your help. They might not even be soliciting your help, you know, they might not even want it to begin with. Might be a good way to start the discussion to tell them well there really is no right. It's about conscious choosing to teach your kids how to consciously choose if you yourselves as parents. (cell phone ping) See right there is a text message, I stayed late.
Emma Perez 7:14
So inappropriate! (laughs)
Marshall Lamm 7:17
no decorum. (laughs) anyway.
You teach 'em, firstly, if you can be uncomfortable with the idea of having not lived up to your own goals, standards and ideals, you know, handle that first. That's kind of where I really spend a lot of my, my effort when I'm working with clients.
Emma Perez 7:39
Is there any, like piece of advice that you can give to a parent who has the kid that it's like, no, I got I got to do this the right way. And if it's not right, then I don't want to do it at all. You know, when you have that sort of a kid, how can you help them get comfortable with the idea of there is no right way and it's okay.
Marshall Lamm 7:59
You first consider the prospect of their failure. All right, and as you consider that, see if it brings up any kind of emotion. If it brings up any kind of fear, any kind of even anger, disgust, those kind of things. See if that brings up in you that you if it was as a parent, well that's really ground zero. If you go to work on managing that emotional response because I firmly believe you are not picking any negative emotional response to the idea of your kids failing or anything in life. The brain is just designed, ready. It already has programs ready to just be set off by whatever's happened. So don't feel bad. feelings, You know, experiencing emotions experiencing feelings never was bad. So the more comfortable you are with, you know your own feelings, especially as it relates to your own child's failure. Now you provide more of a safe place you provide a foundation a Rock of security of sorts to which they can turn when they inevitably fail and mess up and it does not go to plan. If your child is amenable to therapy might be a good place to introduce them to the world of therapy because if they're that rigid, it has to be one way or the other. They're going to explode. It's gonna happen whether whether or not you like it, is that all Johnny Cash song, you know, sooner or later that gotta cut you down. You can run on for a long time. (singing) "you can run on for a long time. Run on..." I was just thinking this the other day, you can run on for a long time, but sooner or later your rigidity will catch up to you there will be nowhere else to run. And, and as a parent, I consider that happening and that you can handle it. And that so could they and that sometimes that's the thing that they need to experience before they'll be soft on the inside to receive help.
Emma Perez 10:00
Right, thank you so much for that. Yeah, that's something that I talked about with clients as well as is go ahead and confront your fears. And, and then what would you do? You know, because I feel like a lot of us, just, you know, our fears kind of sit out here. And they're like, No, I don't want to look at it. I don't want to look at it. And it's like, Look, look at it, is it really going to be as bad as you think? You know? Okay, so what if we have families whose teens are questioning if they even want to do college, which is can be kind of scary because they hear from school, they hear from everybody, what are you majoring in? Where are you going to college? Just already assumed, and that's the best path that you should take. And so if there's thinking maybe they don't want to do it, should we be worried.
Marshall Lamm 10:50
No, in a nutshell, no. I kind of like Dirty Jobs guy Mike Rowe.
Emma Perez 10:57
Yeah.
Marshall Lamm 10:58
You know, the idea that mean there's just multiple paths to making your way in life. There's the Misaki guy, right? Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
Emma Perez 11:07
Mm hmm.
Marshall Lamm 11:08
If you're putting off college, because you're afraid, i don't think that's a good reason to put anything off really, because you're afraid of that if you don't think you're up for the task, but certain things interest you certain professions that would require a college degree or interesting, but you're like, I don't think I could hack it. Well, there's time therapy, time for therapy, because all the fears and stuff in life they're telling us that life is super difficult and and those fears and those messages really aren't wrong. Life is so hard! one of my favorite quotes recently was "it's not that life is not as bad as you think it is. It's worse." it is so much worse. And it's compounded by other people's apathy and malevolence. And at the same time, like you're saying, when you're teaching your clients that we start to learn that we're up It which says something about really what we're made of on the inside, but you can't learn that about yourself until you head in the direction of facing your fear. And let's say when you do that you find, okay, on the other side of facing that fear, maybe all of a sudden the confidence comes to pursue that college education to take the next small step. Maybe it's like, I really want to go to college, I'm kind of interested in this. I want to just get going. I want to just get going with making something like that happen or this, that and the other. I like the idea, See what seems like the next step, the next conscious choice you can make. And for some kids, it's going to be avoidance, that will be the next easiest choice that they're prepared and willing to make. Which means we as parents have to learn how to deal with that the prospect of my own kids doing that makes me (anxious sound) Now if I have that on the inside, Well, that's going to totally impact the way I relate to them which will not be helpful. I like the idea that I've got time and space to be patient with them now, because I want to help them you know, gain confidence and trust in themselves that they can learn from failure that it would be okay that they can engage.
Emma Perez 13:15
What a valuable lesson to teach your kids too that you can learn from failure because a lot of what they experience in life is about you can't fail. You know, the school system is set up for this is the right answer. You have to get the right answer you can't fail. So what a valuable lesson to teach them that there is value in failure, there is something that you can learn from it.
Marshall Lamm 13:38
Absolutely, because failure, It's not like learning from failure's the backup plan, it's kind of THE plan. failure ia inevitable. Your life is set up that we will all become flaming disasters at one point or another if not on the daily. Can't avoid it. So just embrace the hopelessness (laughing)
Emma Perez 14:04
But it's not hopeless because it does lead to, to finding your purpose, right? Finding Your what you want to do. And I have a little quote that I don't even remember where I heard it, but I wrote it down and I look at it it says "fear means you're onto something." So every time I get really scared, I go, okay. Am I gonna let this hold me back? Or am I gonna say, Oh, I'm onto something. Let me keep going here.
Marshall Lamm 14:36
Yes, I think this is why mental health therapy is so important because I can't talk myself out of my own fear when I experience it. Some and it can help us feel a little bit better, but the body that you know our bodies as they produce fear and all sorts of, you know, those other maladaptive emotions is that it It runs on a bit like a different circuit that doesn't speak any spoken language. So sometimes when we try to talk ourselves out of it to it only aggravates the situation, which mental therapy is, it can be so helpful, because it's like, well, I got the fear and trying to talk myself out of it isn't working, trying to "let it go" isn't working. How do I actually manag, what actually will help me manage. That's what I love about my job. Is that a good help? Well, I practice I gotta practice this stuff to any good therapist. I think we need therapy ourselves. And so I have a good therapist. And so I undertake these things every day. I try to live accordingly. And so there's really,
Emma Perez 15:34
yeah, something that I will talk with clients about sometimes is oftentimes pain can lead to purpose, right? So something that you've struggled with yourself, and you've learned how to overcome it or you're in the process. There are lots of people out there that utilize that to help other people as well.
Marshall Lamm 15:54
Yes, yeah. Learn that you help yourself. Yeah. And you can then be of use to other people. in ways that you can't really predict but all the sudden it's there. I think magical things happen on the other side of confronting your own fear and pain.
Emma Perez 16:10
That's true. That's true. It's scary, but it's, it can be so rewarding when you do it. So I'm also hearing you saying that it can be helpful for parents to to start to kind of check their own emotions when it comes to this topic with their with their teens, and that we all as a family can use techniques to kind of calm our anxiety and calm our fears and that can lead us to a better decision making place. Yes?
Marshall Lamm 16:45
yes, absolutely. It's like the amygdala, fight flight portion of the brain. It plays a zero sum game with the prefrontal cortex, which is that smart creative thinking problem solving part of the brain which means in if this is activated, It's like they're on a teeter totter a seesaw. If the amygdala activated, then we are emotionally driven and the smart part of our brain is overwhelmed by all of that. But if we practice deactivating the amygdala, this, it's not like it doesn't do this. And then we need to work on building this up. No, it's an inverse relationship. That smart part of our brain is bolstered. So much research supports that if we just focus on basic amygdala deactivation, deactivating the fight flight part of the brain, that we changed the brain. If you did diaphragmatic breathing for 20 total minutes every day for three months, your brain would look healthier, it would look different.
Emma Perez 17:40
Wow.
That's amazing. So okay, so you can't reason with anxiety. Right? And so if your kids in an anxious place about making the right decision, then they're they can't reason out of it and they're not going to be able to make a solid decision. So first things first is do physical things like the diaphragmatic breathing that you mentioned, to get ourselves into a better headspace.
Marshall Lamm 18:07
Yes, parents have better access to their prefrontal cortexes. kids don't the kids prefrontal cortex is aren't going to be fully grown till their 20s Apparently, the research says like age 20/21 for girls 25 for guys, so they really don't even have a fully formed ability to get rational. We do and yet we relate to them irrationally so much. it's like kids are specifically designed to reveal our own crap our own stuff that we haven't worked on yet.
Emma Perez 18:38
What an idea! (laughing)
Marshall Lamm 18:42
This is another cool thing with research why would say parents start with you, it actually makes a difference. It's like let's say in classroom one, or home one or treatment facility one, you got the staff parents, teachers, they practice mindfulness meditation techniques, which is another deactivator of the amygdala. and home school treatment facility to the staff, parents, teachers don't practice it, but they definitely teach it a lot to the students. The outcomes are much better, much higher over here (indicates first scenario). Wihtout Even teaching it.
Emma Perez 19:19
Whoa, why is that?
Marshall Lamm 19:22
It's all I think there's a lots of fun explanation for why I just like to think that it just changes the energy of people involved. If kids are emotionally driven, they're more likely to pick up on parents energy. Right? they can tell if mom's anxious, they can tell if mom's mad or dad's mad dad's anxious, they can pick up on that without them saying a word. And that they're you know, instinctively they have ways of automatically relating to that. So if mom and dad are just kind of have a way of rationally and calmly relating to their own emotional upset, kids will pick up on that
Emma Perez 19:58
wow. They pick up on that. And then and they watch you too.
Marshall Lamm 20:04
Yep. Yeah. they watch us how we live and they they pick up on all that. I think it's kind of like they pick up on the energy first, without even us saying or doing anything different. And then they start to see how that impacts what we say and do. Now for them when we're emotionally driven. And we're like kind of nitpicking and being super involved we're often times too often we're sending the message that we don't believe in our kids ability to cope with difficulty and to learn from stress and failure.
Emma Perez 20:36
And so they get to this transition into adulthood,
Marshall Lamm 20:39
just freaking out,
Emma Perez 20:42
and they don't trust themselves. Wow. Okay, so what I'm hearing you say is "check yourself before you wreck yourself,"
Marshall Lamm 20:54
That's right. Yes.
You can always be Begin there as a parent. And you can think your advice to your kids is kind of the cherry on top of all that. You can think don't really give advice until you know and have a sense that your kids actually want it or are receptive to it. Otherwise, you're the Peanuts teacher or you know, parent wa wa wa wa that's all they hear.
Emma Perez 21:20
Yeah. And it's so hard as teens to because it's just the stage when it's hard to get them to talk to you. Sometimes it's hard to get them to engage in conversation with you.
Marshall Lamm 21:29
Yes. When they do, I want to encourage that again, so I'm going to be listening more. If I start to pitch in my thoughts, my advice, they don't have the capacity to really make sense of all the "vast wisdom and knowledge that I possess," (laughs) they, they don't have the ability to really integrate and make sense of all that stuff anyway, but they do. They'll pick up on whether or not I care whether or not I have patience for them to make big mistakes and to learn from them. Okay, they can pick up on that.
Emma Perez 22:02
Yeah. This is been so valuable. Thank you for sharing this with us. So what I want to ask next is if there is a family out there that is is saying okay, maybe I should seek some mental health counseling for my teen because they are feeling very stressed and anxious. How can they reach out to you?
Marshall Lamm 22:28
Well, I my website life works Utah and based in Utah, but I do I do video sessions as well if need be. Okay. Yeah. So if your lifeworksutah.com you'll see a spot to request an appointment. That's how you can get ahold of me.
Emma Perez 22:45
Okay. And I'll make sure to include the link for that. And you also have a free gift for us today. Is that right?
Marshall Lamm 22:51
Yes, just I mean for the kids too and again for the parents. The importance of sleep. I mean, Sleep is it's there all the time. And we have a really weird way of relating to it. know this, no human ever got eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. It never happened. It never happened! because there's sleep cycles and things where we actually Wake Up. Now we might not remember waking up but we stir we toss and turn and sleep weird all night. Regardless, we kind of think that something magic happens if we get uninterrupted sleep. oh there are amazing ways to relate to sleep, and it's happening all the time. And we just like to think well, if I'm asleep, it's working, if not we're stressed. so getting your sleep together is maybe one of the best things you can do also as a parent and help your kids incorporate to, to really help them as they're making these amazing, awesome opportunity life choices.
Emma Perez 23:48
And I've heard that sleep deprivation can lead to depression, anxiety, right? And, and kids, you know teens in high school. I mean, they've got school early in the morning when their sleep cycle is later. And they've got all these extracurricular activities to get in to make sure they have on their resume and they have all this homework and so I think the statistic I saw was 80 something percent of teens are sleep deprived. So maybe just helping them get better sleep can even help reduce some of the anxiety and help them get into a better mental space for for making some decisions.
Marshall Lamm 24:32
Absolutely. For sure. I think they needed electives in high school classes on power napping.
Emma Perez 24:39
I love it. I love it. Yeah, why do we stop napping when we're kids?
Marshall Lamm 24:46
Naps are the best that's one of my goals right now is to make sure I get a daily 15 minutes 20 minute nap.
Emma Perez 24:52
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so your free gift is you said it was a video right? a video about
Marshall Lamm 24:57
a little video kind of like this. Little informal. going over some points for how you can start to improve your sleep tonight.
Emma Perez 25:06
Nice. That's amazing. Okay, so I'll put the link to that below this video as well so people can snag that. Thank you so much Marshall for all this was this was great information and it was great fun talking to you as well.
Marshall Lamm 25:19
You too, Emma. It's fun to talk shop a little bit too.
Emma Perez 25:22
Yeah, yeah, I like it. Alright, well, we'll talk again soon. Okay?
Marshall Lamm 25:27
Sounds good.
Emma Perez 25:28
Have a good one.